Majadiliano:Vita za Misalaba

Ndugu Riccardo, jina Vita vya msalaba ndiyo jina rasmi.. Ulitakiwa uweke pia: Vita za Misalaba ... samahani lakini... Vita za.. haimtakiki katika ngeli za Kiswahili au hata katika upatanisho wa kisarufi... Tazama upya...--_{Mwanaharakati}^Longa 07:02, 27 Julai 2015 (UTC)

Wapendwa kama ni kosa ni kosa langu maana nilianzisha makala. Nilipoanza kuandika kuhusu vita mbalimbali nikatambua tatizo la kutofautisha kati ya umoja na uwingi. Najua ya kwamba "vita vya" ni kawaida. Nisipokosei wazee wa TUKU/TATAKI wanaruhusu pia "vita ya/ vita za". (siwezi kuchungulia sasa maana siko nyumbani kwangu natembelea Ujerumani lakini nakumbuka vile). Sasa nisaidie: nisemeje juu ya vita mbalimbali. Naomba tupe Kiswahili kilicho sahihi machoni pako kwa sentensi hii: "Vita kubwa ya karne ya 10 ilileta uharibifu mwingi kushinda vita zote za karne iliyotangulia. " au hii: "kati ya vita za karne ya 20 ni hasa vita kuu ya kwanza na ya pili ya dunia zilizoua watu wengi; wataalamu kadhaa wanaona zote mbili zilikuwa hatua mbili ya vita kuu moja ya dunia". Nashukuru ukitupa darasa! Kipala (majadiliano) 12:16, 27 Julai 2015 (UTC)

Ndugu zangu, mimi nasema daima "vita vya", kwa sababu kamusi zinasema hivyo, na hasa watu wengi wanasema hivyo. Lakini sikupenda kuvuruga mahusiano yetu na kuharibu ushirikiano mzuri. Mkihamisha ukurasa nitafurahi kweli. Hasa tuombe vita vya kidini vikome moja kwa moja. Mungu atujalie amani! --Riccardo Riccioni (majadiliano) 05:46, 29 Julai 2015 (UTC)

Ndugu Riccardo, nimekuelewa uzuri kabisa. Tafadhali endelea na uhamisho wa makala hii.--_{Mwanaharakati}^Longa 10:21, 29 Julai 2015 (UTC)

Wapendwa, msiniacheni gizani!!! Nimetoa hapo juu mifano miwili za sentensi juu za vita. Naomba kweli kweli ufafanuzi namna kuzisema kwa mtindo wa "vita vya". ! Kipala (majadiliano) 21:01, 29 Julai 2015 (UTC)

Ndugu zangu, sitaki kukata mambo hivi au hivi, lakini nataka kuwaonyesha dondoo kutoka Sharifa Zawawi, 1979:

Two nominals with initial ki- are given N-class treatment. These are:
				'kifu'	sufficiency, equal
				'kilo'	a measurement, a kilo
It is possible that these two nominals with ki- and two others with vi- (video? CK) will change their concordial agreement as they become integrated more fully into the Swahili nominal system. This may not happen or, if it does, it may take a very long time. As these words become more widely known, it is possible that they will be treated as "foreign words" since the literate speakers now using them are aware of Standard Swahili requirements and will feel called upon to consider them N-class nouns. Such usage would then, presumably, filter down from the literate to the masses and so the N-class will be commonly accepted. On the other hand, it might well be that grassroots speakers will remain unaware of the "foreignness" of these lexical items simply recognizing their phonological resemblance to nominals in the KI-VI-class.
A survey, necessarily somewhat cursory, of the use of the word 'vita' "war" in Swahili may provide us with some evidence in such a matter. We will first review its grammatical possibilities, and then summarize its treatment in the Johnson and Höftman-Mhando dictionaries; finally, we will note fifteen usages of the nominal and its concordial agreement in contemporary Swahili literature.
By the form of its prefix 'vita' belongs to the KI-VI-class and therefore should take the concordial agreements of the class, i.e.:
		"Vita hivi vibaya vitamalizika"
However, since there is no singular form 'kita' to correspond with 'vita', and because of the lack of number distinction, some grammarians have considered 'vita' to be an N-class noun. The concordial agreements of the N-class require:
		"Vita hii mbaya itamalizika"
The Johnson corpus indicates that 'vita' is sometimes treated as an N-class noun and sometimes as a plural of the KI-VI-class. Höftman-Mhando (1963: 360) assigns 'vita' and its dialectical allomorph 'zita' to the N-class (I suspect that this nominal is of non-Bantu origin and is derived from an Arabic verb "zi't" (drive away) which became 'zita' in Lamu dialect and 'vita' in Kiunguja dialect.).
The works of both early and contemporary writers exhibit either an unawareness of or a resistance to the rules of Standard Swahili with respect to the concordial agreements of 'vita'. A few writers are consistent in their usage; most are not. The following sentences illustrating these inconsistencies are taken from a modern reader, an old work of autobiography and a newspaper:
	 1. Vita vya Maji-maji vilikuwa . . .	(Mhina 1970: 103)
	 2. Vita vya Maji-maji vilikuwa . . .	(Mhina 1970: 16)
	 3. Vita ilipoanza . . .			(Mhina 1970: 106)
	 4. Vita vya Waheheh . . .		(Mnyampala 1971: 5)
	 5. Vita viliendelea kwa miaka mingi.	(Mnyampala 1971: 5)
	 6. . . . vita ya Wazungu huko pwani.	(Mnyampala 1971: 6)
	 7. . . . vita hiyo iliendelea . . .	(Mnyampala 1971: 6)
	 8. Alipoona vita vimekuwa shedidi . . 	(Tippu Tip 1958: 10)
	 9. Vita vya Tabora . . .		(Tippu Tip 1958: 10)
	10. . . . vita vikuu miezi mitatu . . .	(Tippu Tip 1958: 11)
	11. Vita vya Maji-maji vilitokea mimi sijazaliwa.   (M-mRP 1968)
	12. Vita vile vililetwa na Hongo . . .	(M-mRP 1968)
	13. . . . vita vya ukombozi . . .	(Uhuru 1972: 2)
	14. . . . vita vya kupinga ubeberu . . 	(Uhuru 1972: 2)
	15. . . . hawawezi kupigana katika vita vikubwa.    (Uhuru 1972: 2)
From these examples it may be observed that the usages of both Mhina and Mnyampala are inconsistent. They use both the KI-VI-class and the N-class agreements with 'vita'. The contributors to the newspaper Uhuru, on the other hand, use the KI-VI-class concordial agreements consistently, an indication possibly of an editorial hand. However, an earlier writer Tippu Tip used the KI-VI-class agreement consistently.

Anasema kwamba 'vita' haina umbo wa umoja = 'kita'. Lakini tangu wakati ule watu wamebuni neno hili. Limo katika kamusi yangu ya TUKI:

kita² nm vi- [ki-/vi-] war, fight (of groups of people/nations/animals).

Labda 'kita' ni kama "battle" na 'vita' ni "many battles" na kwa hivyo "war"? ChriKo (majadiliano) 22:10, 30 Julai 2015 (UTC)

Mzee Kipala, una la zaidi? Naona ChriKo kamaliza kila kitu!--_{Mwanaharakati}^Longa 06:31, 1 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Pamoja na hayo yote, je, tumekubaliana kweli kuhamisha kurasa zote zinazosema "vita ya" au "vita za", hasa "vita kuu"? --Riccardo Riccioni (majadiliano) 14:08, 2 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Mimi ningesema "la". Kila mtu achague kama anataka kutumia N-class au KI-VI-class. ChriKo (majadiliano) 16:40, 2 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Samahani kwa kuchelewa jibu, niko safarini Ulaya siingii mara nyingi. Kuhusu makala za "vita" nahisi nyingi nimetunga mimi kwa kutumia ngeli ya "n". Tuliwahi kuwa na majadiliano haya miaka kadhaa iliyopita, wakati ule Oliver alishiriki (nahisi yuko likizoni sasa pia) akachangia wakati ule kuwa "vita" kwa kawaida ni "ki-vi" lakini inaruhusiwa pia katika ngeli ya "n". Nisipokosei mimi niliikuta pia katika kamusi moja ya TUKI lakini siwezi kuchungulia sasa.Kama haina haraka mno naweza kutafuta marejeo wakati nimerudi mwisho wa mwezi.

Sitaki kuonyesha kiburi kuhusu jambo hili. Kama kuna njia ya kutaja umoja na uwingi katika mifano niliyotoa hapo juu nitafurahi kutumia njia hii. Hapo naomba msaada wa Muddy na Riccardo. Wasalaam! Kipala (majadiliano) 08:12, 4 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Niliweza kuangalia "vita" katika kamusi ya Sacleux (ling. Kamusi_za_Kiswahili#Kamusi_zinazopatikana_kwa_nia_ya_intaneti) ni kamusi ya kihistoria inayosifiwa zaidi hata kushinda Johnson).

Huyu alikuta "vita" katika ngeli zote mbili za n na pia ki-vi; inaonekana zaidi katika ngeli ya "-n" wakati wake. Nakubali ya kwamba leo kwa wasemaji wengi imekuwa ki-vi, lakini hii inaonekana si Kiswahili cha kiasili. Pia ChriKo alileta maelezo ya kwamba hata leo hii si kawaida kwa wote. TUKI naleta baada ya kurudi kwangu. Hadi kupata jibu kwa ombi langu (tazama juu) napendelea tuendelee jinsi ilivyo. Kipala (majadiliano) 22:30, 5 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Mfano wa kisasa uko hapa: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/wanabidii/LxKaA6bS6is[1-25]

Ni kweli kwamba hata toleo la tatu la KKS (TUKI) linakubali hata ngeli n baada ya vi. --Riccardo Riccioni (majadiliano) 15:43, 6 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Asante, kwa hiyo tunaweza kupatana ya kuwa hata "vita ya / vita za" ni umbo rasmi unaokubaliwa kwa Kiswahili sanifu. Kwangu inatosha. Kama yeyote ana ushauri namna gani kutamka mifano niliyoleta hapo juu kwa ngeli ya ki-vi nitashukuru zaidi!. Kipala (majadiliano) 21:54, 6 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Sasa sijui kamusi zenu feko au namna gani.. vita nm [vi-] war: ~ vya Pili vya Dunia Second World War; ~ vya vu.a wenyewe kwa wenyewe civil war; ~ vya msituni guerrila war; ndege za ~ war/military aircraft. ~ vya msituni guerrilla war.

Mi sielewi kabisa. Hebu jaribuni kutafuta namna ya kuwafanya Waswahili wa sasa waelewe hayo matamshi. Kifupi, hakuna matamshi hayo ya "Vita za" kwa Kiswahili cha sasa. Ushauri tu, mkiona bora mshikirie ukale, juu yenu. Langu jicho!--_{Mwanaharakati}^Longa 06:54, 7 Agosti 2015 (UTC)

Mimi nitaendelea kusema na kuandika "vita vya" kama wanavyofanya Watanzania wengi, lakini hata juzi mwalimu wetu wa Kiswahili amenipa tamko lake ambamo, bila kujua mjadala wetu, aliandika "vita hizi". --Riccardo Riccioni (majadiliano) 13:57, 7 Agosti 2015 (UTC)